RLSH - Trayvon Martin Case

[blackmage]

I want to go out on a limb here to analyze this TM situation from a RLSH point of view. I invite comments as well as healthy discussion on this because I think it is important.

Many different aspects and points have been presented on this, but from the RLSH point-of-view... how is George Zimmerman viewed, perceived, and/or different, according to the actions released?

He saw someone 'suspicious' enter his neighborhood - isn't that what a RLSH does?

He called the police to report it.

He (GZ) followed him (TM) around - even when told NOT to (sounds kinda like Phoenix Jones in that video posted on YouTube)

He (GZ) took it upon himself to confront him (TM) - this is not unusual with RLSHs

Everything loss control and it ended in a killing.

First of all... I'm PISSED because I think the guy(GZ) should have his ass kicked and thrown into jail, BUT... I am willing to listen to other opinions in order to learn.

Based of the categories I spoke about in my previous posts (Hero-v-Antihero-v-Vigilante), I consider George Zimmerman a basic Vigilante. He bent and 'arguably' broke the law in order to serve what he perceived as justice or protection. He was not accountable or responsible in his decisions, actions, or the results. These are ALL of the traits that was discussed when I did my earlier writeup.

He has also set a precedence for the RLSH community, because he struggled to use the title of 'Neighborhood Watch' as some type of cover or resource for his actions. In the RLSH community would that be his uniform and mask?

We've had multiple discussions about guns and the use of lethal force in the RLSH community. This event has not only brought this extreme to the light, but it shows the importance of revisiting this conversation in order to dig into each hero's committment and mental fortitude.

George Zimmerman's actions can EASILY be compared to those in the RLSH movement. Once again, I revisit the Phoenix Jones scenario (mostly because of his popularity).

I have watched him follow someone, on Youtube, that he saw push a woman or something. He followed the guy for blocks as the guy ran away while speakin to someone on the cellphone telling them directions to come pick him up.

They eventually came around the corner an PJ flagged over some police officers who got involved and let the suspect go.

Now if that would have happened in Florida and the guy felt threatened by PJ following him late at night in a uniform... would he have been wrong if he pulled out a gun and shot PJ in the face?

According to the 'Stand Your Ground' law... NO.

Is this what RLSHs are supposed to do?
Where is the line drawn?

Would the hoodie worn by Trayvon count the same as a costume worn by a RLSH?

Was that enough to consider him suspicious?

Would a RLSH doing a patrol through that neighborhood in uniform be considered suspicious?

Could that situation have easily been twisted into something resulting in George Zimmerman shooting a RLSH on patrol?

All of this is CRAZY, but more importantly... it needs to be analyzed and understood especially in the RLSH community and movement.

-Blackmage

[The Muse]

This is defintily a hot button topic. I thought it was interesting that Zimmerman is not a member of any registered neighborhood watch. The fact that Trayvon wore a hoodie is irrelevant to me....thousands, if not millions of teenagers of all races wear hoodies. To claim that his doing so marks him as suspicious smacks strongly of racial profiling....just sayin.

[John Reid]

I'm really not the right one to ask about this as I am not really a member of the modern rlsh movement. My MO is different and I pre-date the whole current movement.

But I will give my two cents anyway.

First let's talk about the case.
1. Zimmerman saw Martin and racially profiled him as a criminal.(First mistake)
2. Zimmerman called the police to report a suspicious character. (I have no problem with that part)
3. The police man on the phone found out Zimmerman was following Martin and specifically told him not to do that.
4. Zimmerman diregarded the policeman's advice and confronted Martin. (2nd mistake)
5. No one knows for sure what happened next, but obviously heated word occurred and a fight broke out. Zimmerman pulled out a gun and killed Martin. (3rd mistake. He could have used pepper spray, stun guns, a taser or even rubber bullets or even shot in the air or Martin's leg. He chose to kill him)

He was taken in for questioning but then released. Like the rest of the nation I was stunned by this. You brought up the Phoenix Jones incident. What if PJ had pulled a gun and shot and killed the woman who was attacking him? Is there anyone who thinks he would have later been released as he was in the pepper spray incident? No, he would still be in prison and rightfully so.

I have never approved really of the actions of many of our young rlsh's who confront drug dealers. I am shocked that none of the rlsh's have been killed doing this and am certain it is only a matter of time before that does indeed happen.

In my career I have reported many many criminals to the police. I have never once confronted anyone and I used to carry a gun. Early in my career I carried a .38 with two blanks in it and 4 bullets. In 22 years I only had to pull it out once. I saw some punks pushing around an old homeless man some distance away from me. I pulled out the gun and fired the blanks twice in the air and shouted for them to leave him alone and they ran off. Later on in my career I bought rubber bullets for the gun.

I would never use the gun even to defend my own life, only someone elses.

George Zimmerman is a self appointed vigilante and a murderer. I am surprised no reprocussions have fallen as yet on the rlsh movement. They may yet and I am not sure that they are unwarranted.

I don't approve of the tactic of confronting criminals or the other commonly used tactic of baiting criminals. I don't approve of that either. Both can and will eventually lead to a case like this of either the rlsh or the criminal getting killed.

It goes back to the popular idea in the rlsh movement of "kicking ass". So many think that is what we are about and what we are supposed to be doing. I disagree. There is nothing wrong with being an extra set of eyes and ears for the police. But always let the police deal with the violent criminals unless there is no time as in the case I pointed out earlier.

Even in my own case, it could have gone wrong. They might have pulled out a gun and started shooting back in which case I would be dead now, but risking your life to help others is what a rlsh is all about. Had they done that. I would not have shot back.

That's the difference between a George Zimmerman and myself.

Just my two cents
Knight-Hood

[The Muse]

@knight-hood...that two cents was well said.

[delta]

When I first saw the case I posted a comment in the RLSH site stating that it illustrated my worries regarding vigilante justice.

I wonder about the image Zimmerman may have given the young man.
Imagine you are a teen (forget race for a moment) walking alone at night and a strange man drives by you slowly, staring at you. He pulls over and comes to talk to you.

If it was me at that age I’d be wondering if this was a perv about to abduct me. I would not be surprised if the young man did strike first and felt that *he* was doing it in self defense.

The case does bring up many issues that will affect all forms of community policing in ways I can only try to predict. Will there be legislation to regulate neighborhood watches? Will there be a renewed effort to change gun control laws? Will the stand your ground law be repealed or changed? I can’t say

I don’t think anyone will connect this to the RLSH movement unless something else comes up. They would look at the idea of regular neighborhood watches. This is one of those times where I’m glad we are a fringe movement. If the media attacks they will go after the much larger and more visible group of neighborhood watches. He has identified with that group and there are more of their representatives and they are easier to find. When a soldier kills someone reporters talk to current PR officers and VA representative. They don’t swarm on Civil War reenactors.

[Ryu]

I have made my stance on guns clear many times over the posts I've made, but I'll say it again: GUNS COMPLICATE PROBLEMS. If Zimmerman had a brain in his head, he would've use A.I.R., carried a non-lethal item, & just taken notes. I don't see the need to (as Knight-Hood put it) "bait" criminals. They're stupid enough to step into a mess they can't get out of down the road, so why risk your own life doing so? Granted, we carry weapons, wear masks & body armor, but we'd prefer to stay ALIVE, & avoid retaliation. I personally feel Zimmerman was no better than PJ in what he did. But unlike some people screaming for blood right now, I say let's let the wheels of justice turn. If we can't allow the system we're fighting to serve do its work, then what ARE we fighting for?

[The Muse]

Well said ryu.

[Babylonian Warrior]

I am curious why a man 200 lb bigger than a teen had to use a gun a gun to take him down like really your not a man if you need a gun to fight some one smaller than your self. Even if trayvon was 6' 1" is your 1st instinct that a person you confront. Going to kill you so you need to shot a kid who was on the phone with his girlfriend l?!?

[Omen]

The entire situation is simply SAD! Its even worst that there hasn't been as arrest yet.

[John Reid]

Unfortunately neither the Florida police nor the State's attorney like to admit they were wrong. They would rather let the murderer go than lose face. Believe me I've been dealing with the police force down here for a long time and it's no coincidence that we are the only city in the nation that I know of that are still having occasional race riots. Trevon was not the first young black male to be killed down here. Usually the police are the culprits.
Knight-Hood

[Ryu]

I hate to make a sticky situation even stickier, but the police announced today there won't be a grand jury investigation into Zimmerman. Which means no indictment of charges. Much as I hate the decision, this IS the system we, as RLSH, are fighting to uphold. I know a lot of you are pissed off at the decision, but please try to remember that.

[The Muse]

Im not angry...I am saddened. I know our justice system is imperfect, but this is a TERRIBLE example of why it is.

[blackmage]

uhmm... can someone PLEASE explain what the heck is going on NOW?!? Zimmerman breaks contact with his attorneys and calls SEAN HANNITY?!?

Hunh? What?

Is that like sinning and asking the devil for forgiveness or something?

Is this true or a rumor?

I am DEFINITELY confused now!!

[The Muse]

who is Sean Hannity?

[The Muse]

nevermind...I just found out.

[The Muse]

Apparently they are expecting an announcement from the authorities that they are going to be arresting Zimmerman. This evenings news should be quite interesting.

[Emerald]

I have a friend who is attending law school, and she made a very interesting point to me.

Zimmerman's representation, before and after, are brilliant tacticians. In the state of Florida you only get to face a grand jury in court if you're being charged with first degree. I think many would argue that this would indeed apply to Zimmerman, as it seems premeditated based on the possibility of racial profiling as well as the fact that he decided to follow, armed, when the police instructed him not to.

However, the media attention and coverage on this event in the past month has basically made it impossible to bring a fair and impartial jury (as our Constitution promises) to court, as at this point in time EVERYONE has an opinion on what should or shouldn't happen to Zimmerman. Remember, jurors are there to review the facts, and the facts only, not to administer justice.

Zimmerman's been charged with second degree, which doesn't require a jury in Florida, and I think this is the result he was hoping for, especially at this point in the game. If my friend is right, and this was indeed the tactic originally set up by his representation, then it's brilliant. Deplorable, but brilliant, and I think it's the reason why we didn't see an arrest or action from law enforcement for so long. Now that everyone has an opinion, its impossible not to have a hung jury.

As for vigilantism... the subject is never apples and oranges. There are varying degrees. You could be Spider-man, who in court would face unarmed assault and battery, or you could have the Punisher, who would still face first degree, even if he felt justified in killing all those mob bosses with his machine guns. At the end of the day, it's not about who was justified or not, right or wrong, it's about what the law describes should be done. Do I agree with it? Hell no, especially not in this case with Trayvon, where his murderer can manipulate Florida's flawed system in his favor, but until legislators change it, that's how it'll be. Stand your ground has a very bloody history in this state.

[The Muse]

If this WAS a plan on the part of his lawyers to get around the jury trial, then, yes. It was an incredibly BRILLIANT plan....but a HORRIBLE travesty of how easy it is to twist the system to get the results that you want.

I am fairly certain that you cannot receive the death penalty for second degree murder in Florida....but if he goes to jail, I have the feeling he will be on the receiving end of another kind of justice all-together. If felons dont take kindly to police who end up in jail, can you imagine how they will feel about someone who did what Zimmerman did?

[rook]

I have two thoughts around this....

I agree that, as law abiding citizen heroes, we are held within the constraints of the justice system and must abide by it's system, warts and all.

However, this does not preclude our responsibility to attempt to change a flawed system for the better.

I don't mean to suggest a militant uprising, but merely getting involved, get people with expertise involved, and see what can be done to change the system from within.

I used to tell my clients during the ubiquitous "legalize it debate" which never fails to derail group sessions, that if they desire a change, stay legal and change it from within. You lose credibility and power once incarcerated.

My other thought pretty much mimics the thought that GZ crossed the line and an example of my own RLSH-ing comes up.

My wife and I were driving in one of the more dangerous areas of Phoenix and we witnessed what we believe to be a car theft. Like GZ, we saw something we thought was suspicious. It fit our biases, seeing two young men fiddling with the door, then the steering column with a screwdriver. Profiling? Maybe not as much as GZ did with race, but if these two men were in their 70's and in the more affluent part of town, my wife and I might not have leapt to that conclusion.

Like GZ, we followed these kids as they screamed onto the highway. Like GZ, we called the cops and reported everything. Location, direction, speed, and license plate number.

Like GZ we were told to stop following them. Like GZ, we ingored that instruction and determined to follow until the police took over or until things got dangerous (e.g., high speed, confrontation), at which point we were to break off at the nearest exit (unlike GZ).

I like to think the police intervention was hastened due to our insistence on following the suspicious vehicle. The car was quickly pulled over and we placidly drove on a few exits before resuming our original course.

Here is where I think the line may be: It's not so much in ignoring the advice of the authorities (though it may be unwise to do so), but in the inability to retreat at the crucial moment of conflict. It is the inability to percieve and appropriately react to the point of no return.

-Rook

[The Muse]

Rook, that sounds quite logical to me. I heard an interview with a judge in regards to the "what-ifs" of the whole situation. The judge, who was a former police officer, explained that when you become an officer, you are trained to learn how to react in situations that become confrontational. Citizens have no such training...unless they are former officers.

So, to me, your statement involving the inability to percieve and appropriately react to the point of no return is right on the money.

[Babylonian Warrior]

every one just realize they cant let George go cuz he'll be killed and when he goes out he has to were a bullet prof vest! so if he gets away with it he will never live the same again...

[The Muse]

No matter what happens, his life is effectively over. Babylonian Warrior is correct...he will never again have a normal life.

[Babylonian Warrior]

if he even has a life in a month or 2

[The Muse]

To be quite honest, he brought this upon himself by CHOOSING not to follow the instructions of the 911 dispatcher and NOT TO follow Treyvon.

[Babylonian Warrior]

oh yeah a witness say travon beat him up